Quantcast
Channel: Cult Education Forum
Viewing all 27784 articles
Browse latest View live

Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)

$
0
0
iamthat

Blaming the victim is not what this message board is about.

See [culteducation.com]

All anyone need do here is go to the top control bar of any page on this board and click on "Mind Control." There is an archive of information within this database.

In my experience most victims that blame themselves for being manipulated have not read very extensively about how coercive persuasion, thought reform and influence techniques work.

Sadly, its a business for certain gurus, swamis and various teachers and mentors in various groups to game people. They use tricks, traps and deception to exploit participants, students, etc.

People come to this board to talk about such experiences, not blaming and shaming victims of such behavior.

You may not mean to shame and blame victims, but your post seems to tilt in that direction. Many people that are in or have been in manipulative groups and relationships don't see it and/or admit it.

Meditation is not the issue. A leader using meditation to manipulate people is the point. Meditation is typically benign, just like reading the bible. But both the bible and meditation can be used as a cover by a unscrupulous teacher.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens

$
0
0
FCSLS--To think and read other posts in this forum on this re growing up in the land of the free and then ending up submitting to cult dictators doesn't make sense but then it does if you knew John and G&M. Anyone new to the forum ever wonder what to post. Read a number of opinions about obsessing, moving on, healing, saving, sorting it out but didn't find what I was looking for. I am here due to the death of those who were supports. Having contact with people who had the same experience has a benefit. BTW, doubt I'll ever move on but that's okay.

Re: The ISA Experience

$
0
0
I attended this totally weird set up in Yorkshire UK in 1990. It was very demoralizing, debilitating & full of people who had been to earlier meetings, had become unpaid 'assistants' & appeared brain washed.
After it, they phoned me several times asking for money. I do think that any one who is not strong mentally should not attend it & the whole structure of the three days was most peculiar. I only decided to look at it again recently as I had read the excellent book about the Manson Family & thought it may be classed as a cult.
Don't go!

Re: The ISA Experience

$
0
0
Another person's report. Make a copy if you want to be sure you
have access to it later. Material often disappears from the internet.

[jackguest4.wordpress.com]

Quote

The seminar was called ‘the isa experience’ and is the first stage of recruitment for a sophisticated and highly experienced money-making and power-trip ‘new age’ cult, wrapped up as a spiritual path to enlightenment. When I got there it looked like a cult and smelled like a cult. At some level I already knew I’d made a mistake. But I was a long way from my home in London (in Bradford), with no transport and a big commitment of around £400 already spent. Plus from the moment you enter the hotel where the ‘seminar’ is held the thought reform process begins.
You are greeted by ‘overly smiley’ strange looking cult members who comprise the core of the cult. And not left alone from the start , so not given the chance to use your critical abilities to evaluate what you’re being told and what’s going on. The authoritarian, charismatic leader begins the seminar with various ground rules (no watches, don’t sit next to anyone you know, no side-talking, no eating and drinking) in a room devoid of natural light. That’s where the seminar will unfold for the next two evenings and days (one of which goes from 10am to 10pm at night). You are persuaded to put aside your own doubts and thoughts in favour of ‘learning something new’ a suggestion from the authoritative leader that actually means you suspend your ability to think for yourself.
By the end of that weekend I had been well and truly brainwashed and turned into one of the smiley, strange looking folks who would go home and try and sign everyone he knew up to the seminar.

Quote

At some level I still knew it was a cult and vowed i’d take the good from it and never do the ‘advanced’ course (£600+) with even more control techniques introduced. And certainly i’d never ‘assist’ – the ‘process’ they call it that gives you the real fast-track growth, but which is in fact where you become a full on recruiter for the cult, tasked with recruiting as many people as you can and ‘supported’ to do so under the false statement that it’s for ‘your own personal growth’.
A few years later i’d done both the ‘advanced course’, been an ‘assistant’ and recruited around 20 friends or family to the cult. This, by the way, made the cult around £5000, of which I received nothing. I’d been brainwashed. My thoughts and behavior had changed so much that my friends and family were worried about me. Most of those I’d recruited had smelled a rat and wanted nothing to do with the cult. I however was on a path to destruction, bent on becoming ‘as good’ as the charismatic leader, punishing myself for all my short comings and imperfections. Short comings and imperfections that the cult induced me to believe I had, by the way.
It was disastrous being an ‘assistant’. I alienated many friends, ran up a £200 phone bill and my business fell apart – all in a ‘process’ that I was told would fast track me to the wealth, happiness and success I wanted; andmake the world a better place.



It appears that ISA has the features of what is called a "Large Group Awareness Training."

The problem with LGaTs is that they are designed to destablise even those who are "mentally strong".

Large Group Awareness Trainings are usually run as businesses, despite all the talk of healing and transformation. Maximizing profit is the chief goal, but recruits are not told this.

Lack of accountability is the major problem with LGATs, which is why so many have come to CEI with harm reports. Licensed physicians and therapists do not require us to sign waivers in which we give up citizen rights to sue for damages in case we incur harm; most LGATS do require subjects to sign these waivers.

In the end, the LGAT takes all the credit for good feelings; if subjects feel upset or harmed, subjects are said not not have been 'ready'.

This reveals the problem: the LGAT claims the power to transform our lives. But if this transformation leaves us feeling harmed the LGAT refuses to accept responsibility for its power.

Anything capable of doing good has the potential to do harm. Drugs such as aspirin have side effects and come with package warnings. But most of the time LGATs never acknowledge that they have side effects. Instead all this is brushed away
by claiming that "This isn't for anyone; you have to be ready."

These articles describe one of the earliest of the LGATs (Lifespring). Many
of these methods have been incorporated into other LGATs. Names and terminology
differ; most of the methods are the same.

Quote

Description of the behavioral structure of the training
An excerpt from "The Politics of Transformation: Recruitment - Indoctrination Processes In a Mass Marathon Psychology Organization"

By Philip Cushman, Ph.D.

[culteducation.com]

and

Quote

Pathology as "Personal Growth":
A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training

Psychiatry, Vol 46, August 1983
By Janice Haaken, Ph.D. and Richard Adams, Ph.D.

[culteducation.com]

Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)

$
0
0
Many gurus and spiritual teachers do use manipulation if they start life as a particular type of person who inwardly fragile, feels estranged
does not feel at ease in peer relatonships.

Psychologist Len Oakes lived in a commune lead by a charismatic leader. Oakes
appreciated that commune, felt he benefitted. But he saw that the leader
had blind spots. After leaving the commune, Oakes learned that the leader and
group had come apart.

With an interest in charismatic leaders, Oakes sought to learn more about
charisma and how charismatic personalities form and how such persons
go on to become charismatic leaders and acquire followers.

Len Oakes' book, Prophetic Charisma, is very informative.

Oakes found that charismatic persons follow a fairly typical life course.

They often become gurus and religious leaders. They may teach quite useful skills, including meditation, but there is a problem, in that these people do not teach
from selflessness, no matter how much they claim to be selfless, no matter how
serenely they present themselves.

They teach because they need validation and because they need approval and trust
from an audience, and they teach because they need to acquire --and keep--
followers.

There's the rub. They have needs, and are unconscious about these needs.

Get, and read Prophetic Charisma 1997 Syracuse University Press by Len Oakes. Oakes is a research psychologist/clinician and after being in a commune led by a charismatic leader, he left, and decided to research how people become charismatic leaders.

Oakes was able to interview 20 charismatic leaders* and found amazing similarities in their life trajectories. Early in life, all these persons had difficulty with ordinary intimacy with peers, and compensated by becoming avid students of social manipulation/communication. Quite a few were in previous careers as entertainers, musicians, teachers, and in some cases, business.

If they later became gurus, they continued to use these social manipulation skills but claimed this was given to them when, out of the blue they became enlightened.

They do not tell disciples they have spent hours practicing verbal judo behind closed doors.

(Several other leaders refused to expose themselves to scrutiny and declined to participate in Oakes study. One, who never met Oakes in person, presumed to tell LO that his life was meaningless)

All were risk takers, and learned how to stay on top of all that went on in their groups. They could talk their way out of awkward situations and learned how to identify even the slightest bit of hesitation in an adversary or potential recruit and adroitly throw that person off balance.

'A common manipulative strategy used by leaders in this study was an argumentative style that was calculated to subtly shift the ground of any discussion from whatever matter was being talked about toward some area of an opponents personal insecurity. In this technique, the leader observed the process of an opponent's conversation and identified some point of hesitency and uncertainy. This was not always a flaw of logic or error of fact; the conversation may have been on some topic about which the leader would have known little and been unable to detect such a mistake. Rather, it was more likely to be some personal unsureness on the part of the opponent, that the leader's exquisite social perception targeted.

'...Typically what was said (by the leader) was an observation that the opponent seemed to be "a bit steamed up about this" or was "finding it hard to say what this is all about." In this was, the opponent was invited, sympathetically and seductively, to expand upon the very point of weakness.

'Or the leader claimed not to understand what was meant at a particular point, perhaps even saying that the opponent was not making sense.


'This usually lead to a further exposure, and then another, until the opponent stumbled over his words and began to look uncomfortable. At thsi point a well time dismissive glance from the leader was all that was needed to intimidate, the other person being glad to have the subject changed to how he might redeem his soul or however...'

(Oakes, pp 89-90)

Corboy reflection:

If a charismatic leader becomes successful, aquires disciples and assembles an entourage, trouble is likely. The leader may feel pressured by the many
disciples and then begin to hide. Gone are the early days when disciples
were on a first name basis with the teacher, ate together, shared meals
and jokes, gone the free and easy mood. Instead, the leader becomes less
accessible.

Rumors take the place of direct contact.

Favoritism rears its ugly
head.

Those with access to the guru become an elite. Those who fall from favor
become scapegoats.

Tension sets in.

Loyal older members who donated hours even years of time are shoved aside in favor of new recruits with glamour and money. Or, new recruits who are cute, beautiful and more entertaining than old timers who know the leader's human quirks and flaws.

If the leader spends years insulating him or herself with the the help of a selected entourage and large bank account, he or she will probably lose quite a few ordinary social skills (eg patience, the ability to accept differences of opinion, the ability to feel frustrated without exploding and dumping on an underling).

By this time, the leader will have little incentive to function any other way than as this kind of leader---someone who functions in a drastically unequal power imbalance and who hides the real self behind a public persona and whose emotional needs and flare ups are modulated and managed by an entourage who parent and nurture the guru and cover up for him or her.

A leader may teach a useful skill such as meditation. But the problem arises when
the teaching situation claims to be for the benefit of students but on the unspoken level, operates for the benefit of the teacher - to reassure the teacher that he or she is desirable and prop up the teacher's fragile self.

And here is where belief systems may play a role.

If the belief is taught that there is such a thing as a living human being who is free from ego, remains permanently free from ego, permanently incorruptible, then
that belief can keep us trapped.

a) Trapped with a teacher who claims to be such a person

or

b) Trapped in the quest for such a person. If we believe a fully realized living person exists somewhere, we may spend too much time with someone who appears tobe that person but is not - and damage ourselves by spending too much time in
the company of such persons.

Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)

$
0
0
I was not intending to blame the victim. I do not see myself or others in Lifewave as victims. We chose to accept certain things and we have to accept responsibility for our choices. It takes two to tango - trying to pin all the blame onto the teacher is to deny our own part in the process.

Thanks for your contribution, Corboy. Much of the process you describe sounds very familiar. I will look up Prophetic Charisma.

Peace.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens

$
0
0
NickelandDimed wrote in part:

“I am here due to the death of those who were supports.”

and

“Having contact with people who had the same experience has a benefit.”

----------

It’s 280392+ views beneficial. The following is sometimes a good “default quote” when there isn’t much to say:

Thomas Carlyle --- “Under all speech that is good for anything, there lies a silence that is better. Silence is as deep as eternity; speech is shallow as time.”

Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)

$
0
0
iamthat :

If the group is democratic and the members/participants elected leaders to serve for fixed terms and there is meaningful financial accountability and transparency through published budgets and funds remain controlled by elected leaders perhaps your are right.

But if it is an authoritarian group without those safeguards and the leaders essentially don't have meaningful accountability then they are responsible for what happens through their behavior, not the people they hurt.

It's a simple matter of checking the bylaws, published budgets and governance of the group. Is it democratic or authoritarian?

See these warning signs [culteducation.com]

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens

$
0
0
I like that Carlyle quote FCSLC. According to Wikipeid, Carlyle had a respect for restraint in speech until "thought has silently matured itself...to hold one's tongue till some meaning lie behind it to set it wagging."

After leaving, the LW conditioning to follow the leadership and never question or dissent can run very deep for many years but this forum goes to show that those who dare to question or dissent by posting have regained their independent thought and that in itself can set their tongues wagging.

Remember the song "Sounds of Silence." Simon and Garfunkle got credit for it but it was written by Jim Beach who grew up in the Walk. Musicians often have ghost writers. If you goggle and read the lyrics it seems to me only someone indoctrinated by the Walk could have written it. Nonetheless, the song has many interpretations. My interpretation is that the song is Beach's unconscious speaking: "And no one dared disturb the sound of silence" (the silence expected of the congregation--don't question the leadership). Or "Silence like a cancer grows" (The prohibition on questioning or challenging was taking over the congregation like a disease, a cancer).

Anyway, I said all that to get to NickleandDimed's question regarding what to post. Try venting. Some vent aggressively while others less aggressive. It doesn't matter. I find that recognizing and posting the way the LW manipulates the scripture to gain control over the congregation helps to relieve those pestering feelings about betrayal.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens

$
0
0
The LW tried to change my personality to be like G&M and then they took God away from me. Still angry over that.


Recalling a wedding and a band playing Sounds of Silence. Weird even for the LW.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens

$
0
0
After thought,

That should be the LW tried to take God away from me and replace Him with G&M.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens

$
0
0
lily rose wrote, "Remember the song "Sounds of Silence." Simon and Garfunkle got credit for it but it was written by Jim Beach who grew up in the Walk."

I've heard two different individuals in the Walk claim they wrote that song. Do you happen to have any reliable sourcing on your assertion? If I had written that song, I would have hired counsel to represent me and get what's mine. Royalties would be in the millions. Just curious.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens

$
0
0
pbxguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lily rose wrote, "Remember the song "Sounds of
> Silence." Simon and Garfunkle got credit for it
> but it was written by Jim Beach who grew up in the
> Walk."
>
> I've heard two different individuals in the Walk
> claim they wrote that song. Do you happen to have
> any reliable sourcing on your assertion? If I had
> written that song, I would have hired counsel to
> represent me and get what's mine. Royalties would
> be in the millions. Just curious.

Interesting--I just started reading the latest bio on Paul Simon (Homeward Bound: The Life of Paul Simon). A friend of mine recommended it to me and said there are a few chapters that characterize Paul as taking credit for things he did not create. I've never heard, until now, that a member of the Walk may have written Sounds of Silence.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens

$
0
0
NickleandDimed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The LW tried to change my personality to be like
> G&M and then they took God away from me. Still
> angry over that.

Welcome NickleandDimed
What G & M personality traits do you think were being placed upon you? I'm not skeptical it was happening...just interested in your perspective.
p.s. I was fairly successful in resisting the line dancing phase in the early 90's.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens

$
0
0
I discussed the whole subject about that song with Jim B once. It is true. He wrote the words, as I recall. I believe him.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens

$
0
0
Thank you for the welcome changedagain. The personality trait that first comes to mind is a coldness rubbed off on me and arrogance. Hate that. Are you a member of Oprah's book club? The Simon bio paints him "as a music thief." Just googled it.

Yes, puddington. Jim B was talented. Wouldn't make that up.

pbxguy who was the other bloke who claimed it?

Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)

$
0
0
I think we will have to agree to disagree.

The nature of a group centred around a spiritual teacher is that authority is vested in the teacher. In Lifewave there was no election of leaders, no bylaws, no published financial budgets and no procedures of governance.

The teacher is responsible for his or her behaviour, but then everyone is responsible for his or her behaviour, including all the followers of any teacher. If those followers choose to give away their power to such a teacher then they cannot blame the teacher for the choices they have made.

I have no problem with accepting responsibility for my choices. At the time I did not know any better, but that was no-one else's fault. I look back on it all as a very valuable learning experience, and I have no regrets.

Peace.

Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)

$
0
0
iamthat:

You say, "The nature of a group centred around a spiritual teacher is that authority is vested in the teacher. In Lifewave there was no election of leaders, no bylaws, no published financial budgets and no procedures of governance."

Yes. What you describe is an authoritarian, high demand potentially unsafe group. Thankfully most religious or educational organizations or groups are not like that.

So those victimized by the teacher you describe really had no say whatsoever and/or no way of holding the teacher directly accountable through governance or bylaws and therefore were not responsible in any ways, shape or form for being victimized and hurt by that teacher.

Please don't attempt to in any way imply blame otherwise or shame victims at this message board.

It's wrong and not at all helpful.

Some teachers identify vulnerable students, others are clueless

$
0
0
What follows will take time to read. But this information may enrich this discussion.

In yoga circles there has been a lot of soul searching about who has chief responsibility - teacher, students?

This applies just as much to meditation teachers as yoga teachers.

Many teachers present their best behavior early in the student teacher relationship. Later, as the teacher's manners become more troubling, assertive
students leave, persons unable to trust their emotions remain, creating a docile group that reinforces each other's docility.

Some teachers actually target exactly those persons who are most vulnerable.

A detailed discussion can be read here.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Then, there are persons who have been traumatized in early life and cannot identify and trust their own emotions when another person
unknowingly or intentionally breaches the boundaries. It is very common for persons with this background to seek healing through a meditation or yoga practice. One yoga teacher who is a trauma survivor put it this way.

“No-one chooses to suspend their critical thinking,” “This is an idea borne from immense neurotypical privilege.

“Over time, I’ve realized that my free will is not as free as I thought it was. My ability to choose as an adult through most of my life has actually been quite crude.

“If I’m caught unprepared, I might hug someone who’s hurt me. I might smile. I’ll say whatever it takes to get them to leave me the fuck alone. So how free is that? These are both symptoms of my history, and tools I’ve developed to cope.

“If yoga culture can’t understand this mechanism, and how it complicates power and consent, it can’t allow me to develop my power of choice further.”

(The rest of this article is quoted below. It applies as much to meditation as to yoga - Corboy)

There have been discussions about who has responsibility in some discussions
about problems with some yoga teachers.

There's a valuable discussion on the Decolonizing Yoga website.

What follows is some material from that article that directly pertains to this'
discussion.

Many students of meditation and or yoga despite being adults in the legal sense are unable to access and trust their own emotions. Many times persons in this predicament have been traumatized. In situations where a trusted authority figure
knowingly or unknowingly pushes past that person's boundaries, that person's mind
and emotions go into a freeze reaction. This is NOT consent. It is up to the teacher to be informed about exactly this and know not to interpret silence as signifying compliance/consent.

Though this material describes the responsibilities of yoga teachers, it applies just as much to meditation teachers and Advaita teachers.

Jivamukti Fallout: A Trauma-Sensitive Tipping Point in Modern Yoga?

Excerpt

Quote

A Trauma-Sensitive Paradigm Emerges

Those who disagree with Kaminoff’s approach suggest that appeals to personal agency in student-teacher relationships are both insensitive and insufficient when a person’s power of choice is compromised.

Jess Glenny, a British yoga teacher and yoga therapist specializing in working with people who have experienced sexual, emotional and physical trauma, was one of many who begged to differ with Kaminoff’s statements on the Jivamukti case.

“This woman is an abuse survivor in process of recovery,” Glenny wrote in an online comment, referring to Faurot.

“This isn’t about her choices. It’s about the way her neurology has responded to abuse. It’s biologically determined by her experiences. If someone has lost a leg, we don’t chastise them for not being able to run when someone tries to mug them.”

“Some of my clients are very, very vulnerable to this kind of behaviour,” Glenny said, referring to Lauer-Manenti’s harassment of Faurot.

“They often don’t have an understanding of appropriate boundaries. They can be triggered into a reflexive passivity and a need to placate in order to survive when someone makes a sexual advance on them. People with these issues are in our yoga classes, and we all need to be aware of this.”

Quote

As both scholar and survivor, Wildcroft doesn’t see the belief in American-style free will as an eternal tenet of yoga philosophy, nor that it refers to an essential attribute of the yoga student. For her, it’s more of a placebo – which means it’s also a resource, and perhaps the privilege of those who haven’t been affected by trauma.

“Free will is a powerful story, she said via Skype. I’d caught her after her evening classes. “It’s a story we may need. But not everyone can tell it.”

I asked her what she thought about Kaminoff’s statement that people fall prey to abusive persons or organizations because they “choose to suspend their critical thinking.”

“No-one chooses to suspend their critical thinking,” she said. “This is an idea borne from immense neurotypical privilege.

“Over time, I’ve realized that my free will is not as free as I thought it was. My ability to choose as an adult through most of my life has actually been quite crude.

“If I’m caught unprepared, I might hug someone who’s hurt me. I might smile. I’ll say whatever it takes to get them to leave me the fuck alone. So how free is that? These are both symptoms of my history, and tools I’ve developed to cope.

“If yoga culture can’t understand this mechanism, and how it complicates power and consent, it can’t allow me to develop my power of choice further.”

Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)

$
0
0
Ah, here is another forum discussion about John Yarr and Lifewave.

[guruphiliac.lefora.com]

One person describes just how difficult it actually was for someone to speak up
and challenge John Yarr.

So, hello. Going by this person's account, some students were assertive and DID speak up and John Yarr did not learn from this.

So how well would less assertive students have fared, eh?

A small excerpt. If what this person says is true, Lifewave sounds like
an ugly organization. Even if one learned stuff in meditation, no concern
for the welfare of one's fellow students would itself be an injury to one's capacity for compassion and fellowship.

'acorn' a former Lifewave student, posting in July of perhaps 2012 on Guruphiliac forum.

Quote

Most of the women concerned did confront him with the effects of his behaviour at different times. But each woman had basically only her own experience to go by and had to overcome her own loyalties to the organisation and his image as its figurehead in order to challenge him properly. Dissent or even gossip was hotly pursued and individuals would have to choose between leaving the organisation or severe isolation and intimidation if they had any reputation as a troublemaker.

When John Yarr assassinated people's characters who had been involved with him sexually, and told his followers not to believe in gossip or particular people's opinions it was impossible for any single person to gain the trust of anyone else who might have been in the same situation.

When John Yarr continued to promise marriage to his partners even when they were already married (by casting doubts about their husbands health etc) leading each to feel they were special, and given the blind devotion and love on their part, it becomes more understandable how he could have perpetuated his deceptions for as long as he did.

Meanwhile directly or indirectly as a result of his sexual relations, four of his closest teachers who had attained their 'Enlightenment' left the organisation. Three of these left because they knew enough about him to want to dissociate themselves but not enough to tell their friends in the organisation why. Six 'adepts' had nervous breakdowns, some from the stress of teaching, most from the conflict between loving and hating him, between serving a spiritual master and someone who was sexually deviant, and between serving him and serving the initiates. With no way for the truth to come out and no one likely to believe it if it did, given the rigidity of his followers devotion to John Yarr, the only option was to suppress feelings of hurt, guilt, fear and anger.

Loyalty to John Yarr was more important than loyalty to husbands or wives and marriages were thus destroyed by his deception. Given this stress, victims of this conflict would immerse themselves in teaching, meditation or the remains of their private happiness, even sacrificing their health, friends, and future for his sake. Similar traumas affected a number of initiates too to whom he made sexual advances.
Viewing all 27784 articles
Browse latest View live